Curse

Renegade ++RIP++ · Apr 14, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Can you tell me the difference between 30k xp or 2 skillpoints? Last I checked once you are level 20 experience means squatt. However rewarding with 30kxp is however in essence equivalent with 2 skillpoints. So this to me looks more to semantics discussions then anything else...

Our point was that this reward would be out of tune with the elite missionscontent that in most cases only gives you 5 - 20k xp for a moderately challenging quest (in fow or uw or sf). Meaning you can't just finish those in 5 mins like I used to do with some of the skillquests.

And yes in pvp it can on occasion break down to not having an appropiate secondary and therebye lacking 1 severe needed skill. If you encounter the lately popular 5 e/mo 3 mo/x holdinghall build which has enough spiking to kill a normal ghost, and once it has halls it will go over to healing seed and heal party spamming good luck capping halls when your necro forgot well of the profane to counter the constant healing seeds that would be hard as hell to consistently shatter.

Rhedd · Apr 14, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Actually, as a matter of fact, I can explain the difference between 30k XP and 2 skill points.

*2 Skill Points awarded: Character is allowed to choose two new skills.

*30,000 XP awarded: Character increases in level a number of levels based on what level he currently is, gaining hit points, skill points, ability points, etc. A number of XP awarded to a starting character is far more valuable than the same number awarded to a higher-level character, thus confusing the entire 1-20th level progression and generally making a mess.

Remember, this is for new characters starting Factions. For old Prophesies characters that are already 20th level, it doesn't make any difference what system is used. So, if the entire universe revolved around them alone, it would be a mere matter of semantics... but you know, that just isn't the case.

No, I don't expect A-net to give people 30k XP for little quests. That's game-breaking stuff, there. Two Skill Points, however, seems harmless, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see it awarded.

Yes, many PvP matches are certainly lost by not having the correct skill on-hand for the situation. That hardly has anything to do with whether or not that skill is unlocked on the player's account.

Interestingly, I personally don't see why A-net doesn't give PvP characters all the skills. I really don't. Heck, I'd do it just to shut everyone up, if it were me.

On the other hand, I think that anyone that takes the PvP so seriously that they can't stand to unlock things by using the faction method deserves to suffer. Really, you can unlock things by playing the game you want to. How hard is that? Okay, so you aren't at full-potential until you've unlocked every skill. Ever think that everyone else out there is in the same boat? Evens things out a bit, I'd say.

If you think you'd win every time if you just had the perfect collection of skills, you're wrong.

Besides, unlocking is CHEESE, guys. If you found that you couldn't play Halls without that one, terribly necessary skill, a few minutes in the bloody random arena would get you enough faction to unlock it. No PvE necessary!

Yes, this is different than the way it works in an FPS. Funny, that's probably because this isn't an FPS, huh?

I just don't see any reason to be crying wolf about this new system quite yet. Sure, it might be worse, but there's no indication that it has to be. I personally think they'd have to work hard to keep it from being much, much better than the old system.

Try playing Prophesies PvE sometime, and being an Elementalist that isn't fire-based... or a hammer Warrior. Good luck with that.

Choice is good.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Apr 14, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

My point was that seeing that:

1) anet stated that the ramp up to level 20 would be way faster. And that the progression to level 20 was not their intent. Their intent however was to bring more gameplay to the level 20 dude. Becaue of this I presumed that these skillquests would be takeable by level 20s as well. For which i stated what would be the difference in the end
2) 30k is equivalent to 2skillpoints for this level 20 person.
3) factions was existing for +-80 content for ascended characters (ergo level 20)
4) these level 20 chars want the new skills as well.

all this would make it seem that it wouldn't be a big deal to give 30k xp. Although like I suggested it would be much easier to just let a person choose a skill in stead of start with something as dumb as skillpoints, or xp points or gold if the sole intent of the system was to hand out the skills to your own choice. If that wasn't the sole intent, then you can be sure that the rewards obtainable by these new quests will not be up to par with the rewards handed out now as free skills. This is logical reasoning to me. Therefore the only extra reasoning i can think of is to reduce the speed of unlocking of skills to a slower halt as to correlate the speed more with a pvp toon gaining faction. In the end making it take longer, in stead of faster as pvp always wanted.

The point concerning the build was simply that you might not have taken along because you hadn't gotten it unlocked, thereby making you take another skill that sorta works mildly the same, as redn enchantment because that one you had equipped. Even though its less usefull agaisnt the situation depicted before. In any case, i never really cared if there was UAS or not seeing that i'm a pve person, but in all honesty i can see the reasoning for it. It is already dumb enough to ocnsider something skill for not having a counter agaisnt every fotm available. The game would have been skill if you had every skill available in the game and had to decide on the spot what skill to use. The adaptations that would have went on and the entire dynamics would have favored the most skilled people in stead ofthe people running the correct counterbuild. Ergo see a rangerspike, take out a shield up. etc... but meh thats offtopic anyway.

I prefer crying wold ahead of time and see the small inadequacies getting taken out then see them deliver a game with all these flaws in. Since that would hurt them more in hte long run.

My elementalist is ward and icebased, and my warrior is a hammerwarrior and it goes way better then if you should try getting into pvp with a stancewarrior or smitingmonk or a AoE firenuker or a ...

aron searle · Apr 14, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It's already very fast. My only problem with the rate is the fact that faction is capped. I would tolerate that better if skill points had a cap too. Since they don't, I'll have 350 skill pts ready to use when factions comes out.. but I would have much preferred to have a million faction saved up.

FAST?

whaaaat, it takes a good 200 hours minimun to unlock everything if you are good. If they want to do that fine, but thats inconsistant with the way they advertised it, which is why so many people complain all the time.

Quote:

This genre probably isn't for you. Not every game appeals to everyone. I agree with you though, and I hope you're right. I hope one person doesn't buy factions.. and I hope they don't post here any more either.

Nice way to dodge the point.

People have been viocing the same concerns for ages, Anet have never answered them, some people are getting a little fed up with the fact no reasons are given as to why it wont be substantianly increased.

Again the only reason people moan so much is the way the game was advertised is not quite in-line with what you get.

Also i hope you also never post here again

Mordakai · Apr 14, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

So basically this thread has turned into a Universal Unlock debate.

Well, that's not going to happen, and if anyone thought Factions was going to do that, I have a bridge to sell you.

The question at hand is relatively simple: Will the new system increase skill grind, lower skill grind or will skill grind remain the same.

The answer: No one knows. Not even me, since all the crap I've been spewing out is totally hypothetical. Either Gaile is lying about the Gold and skill points being the same as two free skills, or she's telling the truth. We won't know until release.

aron searle · Apr 14, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

So basically this thread has turned into a Universal Unlock debate.

Well, that's not going to happen, and if anyone thought Factions was going to do that, I have a bridge to sell you.

If your refering to my post i did not ask for UAS but faster unlocks for PVP players, as i see no reason for a 200+ hour unlock rate for all skills ect.

(and 200 hours is optamistic)

Quote:

The question at hand is relatively simple: Will the new system increase skill grind, lower skill grind or will skill grind remain the same.

The answer: No one knows. Not even me, since all the crap I've been spewing out is totally hypothetical. Either Gaile is lying about the Gold and skill points being the same as two free skills, or she's telling the truth. We won't know until release.

Which is exactly the point of all this i thought, even after gaile posted people dont know.

Will it be faster or slower or the same?

Gaile said they will help offset the cost of skills, that could mean anything from 25% of the cost to enough gold per mission for 2-3 skills, it could mean ANYTHING.

Im a pessamist, i can only assume no specifics were given, because people wouldnt like what they hear.

People dont want extra grind, there concerned thats whats happening, and Gails post dosnt DIRECTLY answere that.

Mordakai · Apr 14, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

If your refering to my post i did not ask for UAS but faster unlocks for PVP players, as i see no reason for a 200+ hour unlock rate for all skills ect.

(and 200 hours is optamistic)

I was referring to the thread as a whole, but I'll be glad to address your particular point.

As a casual player, I've never worried about unlocking every single skill. Hell, I don't even have every skill unlocked for my main character. (Who needs all those Glyphs and Mantra's anyway?)

I unlock what I need when I need it, and it's suited me well so far. The idea of choosing what skills I get earlier in the game makes me optimistic. While I'm not sure such a feature will speed up UAS, but it will satisfy my desire to get particular skills faster (I already have some ideas for my Ritualist, and the faster I get those skills, the happier I will be).

I guess I see the glass half full...

Loviatar · Apr 14, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

FAST?

whaaaat, it takes a good 200 hours minimun to unlock everything if you are good. If they want to do that fine, but thats inconsistant with the way they advertised it, which is why so many people complain all the time.

i actually read the box just now down to the trademark.

nowhere does it say anything about time to unlock anything or imply it will be rapid.

you have given the impression that you are at least a competent (maybe even better) player.

i saw a 2 page ad for GW at the start which quoted the box on skill over time played.

it had a victorious x female with about 50 hours labeled standing over a huge warrior with 400 hours lying on the ground.

do you think you could put together a decent build in 50 hours play that would defeat a player of less skill with 400 hours of play?

since they didnt mention anything whatsoever about actual time spent only skill of player trumps grind time assures victory i dont see misleading statements.

possibly people reading the box might look at whatever is said through rose tinted glasses and be disappointed but i dont see misleading information on skill over time.

MSecorsky · Apr 14, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I still can't understand the whining.

Old way... quest gives one or two skills, which may or may not be in the line that your character is being built.

New way... quest gives what you need to purchase one or two new skills from the trader which has a battery to select from.

It's better. Period.

aron searle · Apr 14, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I was referring to the thread as a whole, but I'll be glad to address your particular point.

As a casual player, I've never worried about unlocking every single skill. Hell, I don't even have every skill unlocked for my main character. (Who needs all those Glyphs and Mantra's anyway?)

I unlock what I need when I need it, and it's suited me well so far. The idea of choosing what skills I get earlier in the game makes me optimistic. While I'm not sure such a feature will speed up UAS, but it will satisfy my desire to get particular skills faster (I already have some ideas for my Ritualist, and the faster I get those skills, the happier I will be).

I guess I see the glass half full...

Its good for PVE as it does expand options early on.

But it dosnt address any of the PVP complaints about unlocking, it dosnt say if its faster slower or the same, from what i gather its not wholly different but the sheer number of skills to be obtianed from both chapters does present an issue.

Im also not talking about unlocking every single skill, but there are 400ish + runes + weopon mods, in GW 1 alone. Not having the right skills can effect your PVP performance to the point where you can play well, but some builds need x skills to counter them, if you dont have the skills available to counter a build then the time youve spent unlocking effects your performance, which is what Anet said they didnt want when they sold it to us. If they want to carry on down the road the game has gone, thats fine its their decision, but i find it unethical to still quote "skill not time played" on the box.

Another thing of interest, you look at skills that seem useless and decide to not unlock them. Individual skills can be useless, but combined with otheres they can create interesting builds, limiting the amount of skills you have available limits creativity.

Anet can look at their database and tell us the average player has 20k like they have done in the past.

I would be interested if they could look at all the accounts and see the general % of unlocks, im sure they have or can get this info.

MSecorsky · Apr 14, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Its good for PVE as it does expand options early on.

But it dosnt address any of the PVP complaints about unlocking, it dosnt say if its faster slower or the same, from what i gather its not wholly different but the sheer number of skills to be obtianed from both chapters does present an issue.

It has nothing to do with PvP unlocking, so quit mixing unrelated topics. This is solely a change to how PvE players acquire skills early in the game. This isn't a PvP related change, but does allow for PvE/PvP players to unlock skills via PvE play of greater variety early in the game.

For pure PvPers, this doesn't appear to change anything.

Da Cebuano · Apr 14, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Are they gonna reset the skill prices? I mean at 1k a pop per skill is messed up, grind not skill indeed, I hope you can get all the non elite skills through quest, then I'll actually do it(all the new skills, no prophecy skills) all the quest.

MSecorsky · Apr 14, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Cebuano

Are they gonna reset the skill prices? I mean at 1k a pop per skill is messed up, grind not skill indeed, I hope you can get all the non elite skills through quest, then I'll actually do it(all the new skills, no prophecy skills) all the quest.

Skill prices are reset for all new characters.

Rey Lentless · Apr 14, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Im also not talking about unlocking every single skill, but there are 400ish + runes + weopon mods, in GW 1 alone. Not having the right skills can effect your PVP performance to the point where you can play well, but some builds need x skills to counter them, if you dont have the skills available to counter a build then the time youve spent unlocking effects your performance, which is what Anet said they didnt want when they sold it to us. If they want to carry on down the road the game has gone, thats fine its their decision, but i find it unethical to still quote "skill not time played" on the box.

You can only have 8 skills at a time. Compare this game to say Diablo or something, where time played is vastly important. Your loot can just overpower someone else with inferior loot and skill won't play much of a factor. This game isn't like that at all and time played is not as much of an advantage. Is UAX a helpful thing? Well duh, of course it is. If you've put in less than 200 hours into the game, I seriously doubt it's the lack of skills keeping you down anyway, it is the lack of skill.

aron searle · Apr 14, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

You can only have 8 skills at a time.

Ummm ok ?

So what are you suggesting with that point?

Quote:

Compare this game to say Diablo or something, where time played is vastly important. Your loot can just overpower someone else with inferior loot and skill won't play much of a factor. This game isn't like that at all and time played is not as much of an advantage. Is UAX a helpful thing? Well duh, of course it is. If you've put in less than 200 hours into the game, I seriously doubt it's the lack of skills keeping you down anyway, it is the lack of skill.

Replace loot with skills, a better selection of skills gives you an advantage over someone who dosnt.

And why do you think that anyone needs more than 200 hours to be skillfull at a game, i dont get your point mentioning that. It shouldnt take most people more than half an hour to master the basic controls, after that its just learning what skills do what. Again what is your point, are you suggesting people actually need 200 hours to learn how to play~?

Mordakai · Apr 14, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I think the idea you need all skills unlocked in order to compete is completely wrong.

In fact, I would argue you don't even need to have all skills to have an advantage. Look at the best builds out right now... ANYONE can make those builds.

Now, if you want to be the first on the block to find a use for a "crappy" skill, more power to you, but even if that crappy skill is now uber with this new build you've created, it's not hard for everyone to duplicate. Thus is the genius of Guild Wars...

aron searle · Apr 14, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I think the idea you need all skills unlocked in order to compete is completely wrong.

Of course you can compete with less skills than someone who has played for 300 or so hours more than you. But it would put you at a disadvantage as they will have a better selection of mods and skills available to them. Weather its a small or big advantage it completly poops on the skill not time spent mantra.

Quote:

In fact, I would argue you don't even need to have all skills to have an advantage. Look at the best builds out right now... ANYONE can make those builds.

Now, if you want to be the first on the block to find a use for a "crappy" skill, more power to you, but even if that crappy skill is now uber with this new build you've created, it's not hard for everyone to duplicate. Thus is the genius of Guild Wars...

So your vision for guild wars is that people should aim to unlock skills to use the latest build, rather than be given a large selection of skills and left to experiment, learn and have fun with.

what vision.

Well then you should be happy as thats what we have right now, people with limited skills unlocked to play the latest best build made by the more hardcore players. And its a "factor" as to why builds like IWAY, never seem to die.

Again im not arguing for UAS, thats not going to happen, though no reason has been given other than it was never inteded.

But i should be able to unlock skills at my learning rate, not have to be held back by the rate at which i can unlock.

Rhedd · Apr 14, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I bet you guys also think you can't be truly competitive in basketball without $600 shoes. ^_^

Rey Lentless · Apr 14, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Again im not arguing for UAS, thats not going to happen, though no reason has been given other than it was never inteded.

Because it isn't in an mmorpg business model to do so. GW certainly 'less' of a grind than the standard and it is advertised as such, but unlocking things and having a feeling of advancement is part of the fun of the genre, and might be the main one. If you've played other games in the genre, you'd see that there is indeed a vast difference in the grind and GW is as advertised in that way. The loot factor is also pretty much eliminated. Loot is unimportant for competitive play, and unlike having luck play a factor in finding that super game breaking item that makes you a powerful character, you simply plan on what you want to unlock here. Loot as a whole is just for aesthetics in this game and while there are certain items out there that can give a marginal advantage, this is largely unimportant in the greater scheme.

Quote:

Ummm ok ?

So what are you suggesting with that point?

My point being that skills are really the basis of this game, but you can only have 8 at a time. While you have more options, you still only have a bar of 8 at any given time. So you may have unlocked 10 skills, some other person might have 900, but your bars might be exactly the same and no advantage is given. Unlike other games where loot is largely in place of skills, the loot can be 'stacked' (like good armor, good weapons, shield, etc). But in this game, you still only have 8 skills at a time, and those other 900 skills aren't going to help you.. they just give you options.. and only options beforehand.. stuff you can plan for. You also choose which skills you want, which largely eliminates the grind. You don't have to spend hundreds of hours of farming hoping to unlock that one skill.. you can simple pick it first. And the changes in factions will apparently make this even better, both for pve'ers, and for pvpers who are playing pve to unlock content.

I'm not arguing that you don't want more options and UAX is certainly a priority for me too, but I also don't think it's required to play pvp. You can concentrate on certain classes and as you continue to play, you can unlock more content and be able to play more and more profs as you keep playing. Since pvp takes experience to be good at, I don't see this as a problem at all. People need to play to get better, and I think the rate of content being unlocked in pvp is actually higher than the learning curve. By the time people are skillful and knowledgable enough to play 8 profs, they'll have unlocked the content by then too.

I think people starting from scratch and playing pvp are at a disadvantage and can see them not liking this game much. People are much better off going through the pve at least once to get a working knowledge of a game, and at least moderate knowledge of one prof. Trying to learn the game in random arena from scratch is probably one of the worst ways to learn this game. Somone else mentioned they had friends trying to do that, and I can see how that would fail. But that's kind of common sense there. I mean any game you get, you usually go through the non-pvp content a little first before expecting to be at all competitive in pvp.

Karmakin · Apr 14, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Firstly, the ONLY skill quests in Prophesies that gives more than ONE skill for a class are pre-Searing quests, made to set your character up with a minimal handful of skills. These give out more than one skill, but only for ONE class, not both the primary and secondary.

To reiterate: There are NO skill quests in Prophesies that hand out more than one primary and one secondary skill for a total of two skills.

Actually that's wrong. Each profession has a quest in early post-Searing that gives 4 skills for that class. Now, these skills are the quest skills from pre-searing, but that's beside the point.

Now, I agree with everything else you've said. Just wanted to correct this point

.

And yeah. 30k experience would be bad, because it would encourage rushing to an even more degree than it is now. But giving skill points out like candy+gold rewards to soften the blow of getting new skills.

Yeah. That's sweet.

1k gold+a skill point=any non-elite skill in the game for a fully explored character.

If you've played through the game with a character class to unlock stuff, a few k faction for runes and elites skills, and a fully explored character with some gold and a few skill points==UAX